From henry.r.bent at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 04:44:48 2024
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2024 18:44:48 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Multiflow Compiler
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
I happened upon
https://old.gustavobarbieri.com.br/trabalhos-universidade/mc722/lowney92multiflow.pdf
and I am curious as to whether any of the original Multiflow compilers
survive. I had never heard of them before now, but the fact that they were
licensed to so many influential companies makes me think that there might
be folks on this list who know of its history.
-Henry
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From jon at fourwinds.com Tue Apr 2 04:54:10 2024
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2024 18:54:10 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Multiflow Compiler
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <202404011853.431Irt2E880190@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Henry Bent writes:
> I happened upon
> https://old.gustavobarbieri.com.br/trabalhos-universidade/mc722/lowney92multiflow.pdf
> and I am curious as to whether any of the original Multiflow compilers
> survive. I had never heard of them before now, but the fact that they were
> licensed to so many influential companies makes me think that there might
> be folks on this list who know of its history.
>
> -Henry
Great question. Unfortunately, Cindy passed away last summer.
I haven't been in touch with John or Ben in decades and don't
know how to reach them. They used to have a company called
Equator (I think) that continued work on their trace scheduling
compilier after the demise of Multiflow. I do have a big file
folder with info on the compiler design but I don't think that
I'm free to share it.
Jon
From luther.johnson at makerlisp.com Tue Apr 2 05:12:36 2024
From: luther.johnson at makerlisp.com (Luther Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2024 19:12:36 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Multiflow Compiler
In-Reply-To: <202404011853.431Irt2E880190@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
<202404011853.431Irt2E880190@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <4a466a5a-38cc-9ddc-bcbd-1fb781bf6ab7@makerlisp.com>
You can always read Josh Fisher's book on the "Bulldog" compiler, I
believe he did this work at Yale.
On 04/01/2024 11:53 AM, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> Henry Bent writes:
>> I happened upon
>> https://old.gustavobarbieri.com.br/trabalhos-universidade/mc722/lowney92multiflow.pdf
>> and I am curious as to whether any of the original Multiflow compilers
>> survive. I had never heard of them before now, but the fact that they were
>> licensed to so many influential companies makes me think that there might
>> be folks on this list who know of its history.
>>
>> -Henry
> Great question. Unfortunately, Cindy passed away last summer.
> I haven't been in touch with John or Ben in decades and don't
> know how to reach them. They used to have a company called
> Equator (I think) that continued work on their trace scheduling
> compilier after the demise of Multiflow. I do have a big file
> folder with info on the compiler design but I don't think that
> I'm free to share it.
>
> Jon
>
From stewart at serissa.com Tue Apr 2 13:47:19 2024
From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 03:47:19 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Multiflow Compiler
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C0A0EB80-3729-4921-B176-85DE6E42584B@serissa.com>
Well some of the authors of the trace scheduling paper from Multiflow, Geoff Lowney, and Bob Nix, wound up at Digital in the early 90’s. Geoff is now an Intel Fellow, still doing compilers.
-L
> On Apr 1, 2024, at 2:44 PM, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I happened upon https://old.gustavobarbieri.com.br/trabalhos-universidade/mc722/lowney92multiflow.pdf and I am curious as to whether any of the original Multiflow compilers survive. I had never heard of them before now, but the fact that they were licensed to so many influential companies makes me think that there might be folks on this list who know of its history.
>
> -Henry
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From paul.winalski at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 01:53:25 2024
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 15:53:25 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Multiflow Compiler
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VTMM38ii=k58KC2gYp2jYjSSE7_G0FDADiXN0H93JphCA@mail.gmail.com>
The back end (optimizer and code generator) for Intel's current C/C++ and
Fortran compilers uses a modified version of Multiflow IL0 as its
intermediate language.
-Paul W.
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From paul.winalski at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 02:37:39 2024
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 16:37:39 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Multiflow Compiler
In-Reply-To: <CABH=_VTMM38ii=k58KC2gYp2jYjSSE7_G0FDADiXN0H93JphCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEdTPBfdfDq7G70ZhM0drsd9=i6AnesMOmdO-kyiS7w0zJuoMA@mail.gmail.com>
<CABH=_VTMM38ii=k58KC2gYp2jYjSSE7_G0FDADiXN0H93JphCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VSBpXmxLnwbSDYkGv7ed5C-SrAZDRE8SOFbQdqoATwD=w@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 11:53 AM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski at gmail.com>
wrote:
> The back end (optimizer and code generator) for Intel's current C/C++ and
> Fortran compilers uses a modified version of Multiflow IL0 as its
> intermediate language.
>
> Clem Cole reminds me that the situation has changed since I retired from
Intel in 2016. Intel has switched to a LLVM-based compiler back end. The
migration to LLVM was just getting started when I retired. Intel has been
contributing to LLVM, particularly in the areas of parallelization, loop
transformation, and interprocedural optimization. Some of this technology
has Multiflow roots.
-Paul W.
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From douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu Wed Apr 3 07:12:40 2024
From: douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu (Douglas McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 21:12:40 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] *roff hyphenation trivia challenge
Message-ID: <CAKH6PiVLU+s3MQz1fKoHk7XX26tDTEqxUeurPHdjmCJF3k6zrw@mail.gmail.com>
> [Tex's] oversetting of lines caused by the periodic failure of the
> paragraph-justification algorithms drove me nuts.
Amen. If Tex can't do what it thinks is a good job, it throws a fit
and violates the margin, hoping to force a rewrite. Fortunately,
one can shut off the line-break algorithm and simply fill greedily.
The command to do so is \sloppy--an ironic descriptor of text
that looks better, albeit not up to Tex's discriminating standard.
Further irony: when obliged to write in Tex, I have resorted to
turning \sloppy mode on globally.
Apologies for airing an off-topic pet peeve,
Doug
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From mj at broniarz.net Wed Apr 3 08:00:08 2024
From: mj at broniarz.net (Maciej Jan Broniarz)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 22:00:08 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Old Solaris cdroms/docs/manuals
Message-ID: <CACnk1sB9_vL5kbVzC6bysMhr0FA7Pk6+aVmx5wWDuNi7P8fX+w@mail.gmail.com>
Hello Everyone
One of polish academic institutions was getting rid of old IT-related stuff
and they were kind enough to give me all Solaris related stuff, including
lots (and i mean lots) of installation CD-ROMS, documentations, manuals,
and some solaris software, mostly compilers and scientific stuff.
If anyone would be interested feel free to contact me and i'd be happy to
share - almost everything is in more than a few copies and I have no
intention of keeping everything for myself.
Currently all of the stuff is located in Warsaw, Poland.
Best regards,
mjb
--
Maciej Jan Broniarz
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From paul at mcjones.org Wed Apr 3 08:56:03 2024
From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 22:56:03 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Multiflow Compiler
In-Reply-To: <171209236009.1214089.9696983396368447310@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <171209236009.1214089.9696983396368447310@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <FB54E005-E96E-426D-A37B-5DF378C24DC7@mcjones.org>
> You can always read Josh Fisher's book on the "Bulldog" compiler, I
> believe he did this work at Yale.
Are you thinking of John Ellis’s thesis:
Bulldog: A Compiler for VLIW Architectures
John R. Ellis
February 1985
http://www.cs.yale.edu/publications/techreports/tr364.pdf
Fisher was Ellis’s advisor. The thesis was also published in ACM’s Doctoral Dissertation Award:
https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262050340/bulldog/
I believe Ellis still has a tape with his thesis software on it, but I don’t know if he’s been able to read it.
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From luther.johnson at makerlisp.com Wed Apr 3 09:46:22 2024
From: luther.johnson at makerlisp.com (Luther Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 23:46:22 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Multiflow Compiler
In-Reply-To: <FB54E005-E96E-426D-A37B-5DF378C24DC7@mcjones.org>
References: <171209236009.1214089.9696983396368447310@minnie.tuhs.org>
<FB54E005-E96E-426D-A37B-5DF378C24DC7@mcjones.org>
Message-ID: <620b7d08-1c41-3dff-d439-a63a07647f6f@makerlisp.com>
You are correct. I had (and read !), that book, but I had obviously
forgotten the author. I later worked with someone who also had Josh
Fisher as his advisor, so that's where my lossy memory name substitution
came from. Thank you for the correction !
I enjoyed that book when I read it.
On 04/02/2024 03:55 PM, Paul McJones wrote:
>> You can always read Josh Fisher's book on the "Bulldog" compiler, I
>> believe he did this work at Yale.
>
> Are you thinking of John Ellis’s thesis:
>
> Bulldog: A Compiler for VLIW Architectures
>
> John R. Ellis
> February 1985
> http://www.cs.yale.edu/publications/techreports/tr364.pdf
>
>
> Fisher was Ellis’s advisor. The thesis was also published in ACM’s
> Doctoral Dissertation Award:
>
> https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262050340/bulldog/
>
>
> I believe Ellis still has a tape with his thesis software on it, but I
> don’t know if he’s been able to read it.
>
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From marcus.e.clark at outlook.com Fri Apr 5 07:16:45 2024
From: marcus.e.clark at outlook.com (Marcus Clark)
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2024 21:16:45 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they care
to share?
Message-ID: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Wikipedia has a brief page on cscope, which has a link to
https://cscope.sourceforge.net/history.html
written by Harold Bamford, in which he talks about the
early days of cscope at Bell Labs and its inventor Joe Steffan.
I wondered if anyone can add any interesting information about using
cscope on their projects or anything about its development.
-Marcus.
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From lm at mcvoy.com Fri Apr 5 08:38:34 2024
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:38:34 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com>
Interesting, no. Fond memories, absolutely. On SPARC machines with 4MB
of ram, cscope was pretty essential if you wanted to get anything done.
I used it a ton, made me way more productive.
On Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 09:16:31PM +0000, Marcus Clark wrote:
>
> Wikipedia has a brief page on cscope, which has a link to
> https://cscope.sourceforge.net/history.html
> written by Harold Bamford, in which he talks about the
> early days of cscope at Bell Labs and its inventor Joe Steffan.
>
> I wondered if anyone can add any interesting information about using
> cscope on their projects or anything about its development.
>
> -Marcus.
--
---
Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
From crossd at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:41:58 2024
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2024 22:41:58 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W6dk-5yzetLpPpTKO2tYYFMhj3KOTKVP-3wSJ+sv5VHGw@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 6:38 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> Interesting, no. Fond memories, absolutely. On SPARC machines with 4MB
> of ram, cscope was pretty essential if you wanted to get anything done.
> I used it a ton, made me way more productive.
That aspect of the culture remained and carried on to the descendents of Sun.
cscope is still very much used in the illumos project. In fact, I used
it yesterday (though not for illumos).
- Dan C.
> On Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 09:16:31PM +0000, Marcus Clark wrote:
> >
> > Wikipedia has a brief page on cscope, which has a link to
> > https://cscope.sourceforge.net/history.html
> > written by Harold Bamford, in which he talks about the
> > early days of cscope at Bell Labs and its inventor Joe Steffan.
> >
> > I wondered if anyone can add any interesting information about using
> > cscope on their projects or anything about its development.
> >
> > -Marcus.
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
From grog at lemis.com Fri Apr 5 09:35:29 2024
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2024 23:35:29 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <Zg85MaFFx69SJMdW@hydra.lemis.com>
On Thursday, 4 April 2024 at 15:38:28 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 09:16:31PM +0000, Marcus Clark wrote:
>>
>> I wondered if anyone can add any interesting information about using
>> cscope on their projects or anything about its development.
>
> Interesting, no. Fond memories, absolutely. On SPARC machines with 4MB
> of ram, cscope was pretty essential if you wanted to get anything done.
> I used it a ton, made me way more productive.
Agreed. It was an essential tool when I was developing code. It just
seems funny to be asked about "memories" or "interesting". At an only
slightly different level, it would be like asking the same question
about, say, sh.
Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php
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From dave at horsfall.org Fri Apr 5 11:37:33 2024
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 01:37:33 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <Zg85MaFFx69SJMdW@hydra.lemis.com>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com> <Zg85MaFFx69SJMdW@hydra.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404051224550.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
On Fri, 5 Apr 2024, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> Agreed. It was an essential tool when I was developing code. It just
> seems funny to be asked about "memories" or "interesting". At an only
> slightly different level, it would be like asking the same question
> about, say, sh.
Using C since the 70s (5/6/7/CP-M/SysIII/SysV/FreeBSD/Linux/Mac/etc), and
I've never heard of it?
Now installed on the Mac to see what it can do...
-- Dave
From noel.hunt at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 11:39:27 2024
From: noel.hunt at gmail.com (Noel Hunt)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 01:39:27 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAGfO01zTgj1QtKCBpjUSxeYphVwf221tEqnMeS_CL4wZSif=Aw@mail.gmail.com>
And don't forget that 'samuel' had an interface to 'cscope'.
The drawback to that is that 'samuel' tries to put cscope's output onto a
cacscaded button 3 menu, and when you have a large number of resuslts
this unfortunately becomes unwieldly. Samuel is extremely nice to use
when you aren't dealing with hundreds of results from a search.
By modifying cscope's output such that the filename/linenumber information
is in a saner format (i.e., 'filename:linenumber'), and is the first
field of the
output line, then it is possible to use cscope with Plan9-style plumbing (sam,
acme) by availing oneself of the line-oriented output format. This could, for
example, be read into an acme window.
On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 8:16 AM Marcus Clark <marcus.e.clark at outlook.com> wrote:
>
>
> Wikipedia has a brief page on cscope, which has a link to
> https://cscope.sourceforge.net/history.html
> written by Harold Bamford, in which he talks about the
> early days of cscope at Bell Labs and its inventor Joe Steffan.
>
> I wondered if anyone can add any interesting information about using
> cscope on their projects or anything about its development.
>
> -Marcus.
From lm at mcvoy.com Fri Apr 5 12:07:40 2024
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 02:07:40 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404051224550.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com>
<Zg85MaFFx69SJMdW@hydra.lemis.com>
<alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404051224550.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20240405020734.GF2235@mcvoy.com>
On Fri, Apr 05, 2024 at 12:37:22PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
> > Agreed. It was an essential tool when I was developing code. It just
> > seems funny to be asked about "memories" or "interesting". At an only
> > slightly different level, it would be like asking the same question
> > about, say, sh.
>
> Using C since the 70s (5/6/7/CP-M/SysIII/SysV/FreeBSD/Linux/Mac/etc), and
> I've never heard of it?
>
> Now installed on the Mac to see what it can do...
It knows everything and lets you see that fast. make cscope was a thing
in my makefiles for decades.
--
---
Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
From grog at lemis.com Fri Apr 5 13:55:03 2024
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 03:55:03 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <20240405020734.GF2235@mcvoy.com>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com>
<Zg85MaFFx69SJMdW@hydra.lemis.com>
<alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404051224550.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
<20240405020734.GF2235@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <Zg92CliXrPTmELRV@hydra.lemis.com>
On Thursday, 4 April 2024 at 19:07:34 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2024 at 12:37:22PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed. It was an essential tool when I was developing code. It just
>>> seems funny to be asked about "memories" or "interesting". At an only
>>> slightly different level, it would be like asking the same question
>>> about, say, sh.
>>
>> Using C since the 70s (5/6/7/CP-M/SysIII/SysV/FreeBSD/Linux/Mac/etc), and
>> I've never heard of it?
>>
>> Now installed on the Mac to see what it can do...
>
> It knows everything and lets you see that fast. make cscope was a thing
> in my makefiles for decades.
Indeed. The main FreeBSD kernel Makefile also includes a cscope
target, and also TAGS (for Emacs), which is similar.
Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php
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From g.branden.robinson at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:03:25 2024
From: g.branden.robinson at gmail.com (G. Branden Robinson)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 04:03:25 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <Zg92CliXrPTmELRV@hydra.lemis.com>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com>
<Zg85MaFFx69SJMdW@hydra.lemis.com>
<alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404051224550.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
<20240405020734.GF2235@mcvoy.com>
<Zg92CliXrPTmELRV@hydra.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20240405040312.upvohjhbfvlvlfgu@illithid>
At 2024-04-05T14:54:50+1100, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> Indeed. The main FreeBSD kernel Makefile also includes a cscope
> target, and also TAGS (for Emacs), which is similar.
ctags(1) is not only supported by nvi, elvis, vim, and vile, it (and the
ex(1) and vi(1) interface to it) is standardized by POSIX.
https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/ctags.html
cscope is cool, but its use only of standout() for variation of the
display is visually tiring, and after being away from it for a while, I
always forget that you have to use Control+D to exit.
Regards,
Branden
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From tuhs at tuhs.org Fri Apr 5 14:59:29 2024
From: tuhs at tuhs.org (segaloco via TUHS)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 04:59:29 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Did UNIX Ever Touch SPC-SWAP, EPL, or EPLX (1A Languages)?
Message-ID: <xv5Yh_-qaISR1NMcDZxT-u0eS7LWSr7Im5AlapgURum52oDIRq07Hu4S77V7PlsWb6URG1Mzxz4OLl4ILZq6J48F3pfCDcR4FRE1GwBKy8s=@protonmail.com>
So I've been doing a bit of reading on 1A and 4ESS technologies lately, getting
a feel for the state of things just prior to 3B and 5ESS popping onto the scene,
and came across some BSTJ references to the programming environments involved
in the 4ESS and TSPS No. 1 systems.
The general assembly system targeting the 1A machine language was known as
SPC-SWAP (SWitching Assembly Program)[1](p. 206) and ran under OS/360/370, with
editing typically performed in QED. This then gave way to the EPL (ESS
Programming Language) and ultimately EPLX (EPL eXtra)[2](p. 1)[3](p. 8)
languages which, among other things, were used for later 4ESS work with cross-
compilers for at least TSS/360 by the sounds of it.
Are there any recollections of attempts by the Bell System to rebase any of
these 1A-targeting environments into UNIX, or by the time UNIX was being
considered more broadly for Bell System projects, was 3B/5ESS technology well on
the way, rendering attempting to move entrenched IBM-based environments for the
older switching computation systems moot?
For the record, in addition to the evolution of ESS to the 5ESS generation, a
revision of TSPS, 1B, was also introduced which was rebased on the 3B20D
processor and utilized the same 3B cross-compilation SGS under UNIX as other 3B-
targeted applications[4]. Interestingly, the paper on software development
in [4](p. 109) still makes reference to Programmer's Workbench as of 1982,
implying that nomenclature may have still been the norm at some Bell Labs sites
such as Naperville, Illinois, although I can't tell if they're referring to
PWB as in the branch of UNIX or the environment of make, sccs, etc.
Additionally, is anyone aware of surviving accessible specimens of SWAP
assembly, EPL, or EPLX code or literature beyond the BSTJ references and paper
referenced in the IEEE library below? Thanks for any insights!
- Matt G.
[1] - https://bitsavers.org/magazines/Bell_System_Technical_Journal/BSTJ_V58N06_197907_Part_1.pdf
[2] - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/810323
[3] - https://bitsavers.org/magazines/Bell_System_Technical_Journal/BSTJ_V60N06_198107_Part_2.pdf
[4] - https://bitsavers.org/magazines/Bell_System_Technical_Journal/BSTJ_V62N03_198303_Part_3.pdf
From brad at anduin.eldar.org Fri Apr 5 16:48:59 2024
From: brad at anduin.eldar.org (Brad Spencer)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 06:48:59 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
(message from Marcus Clark on Thu, 4 Apr 2024 21:16:31 +0000)
Message-ID: <xonwmpce24a.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
Marcus Clark <marcus.e.clark at outlook.com> writes:
> Wikipedia has a brief page on cscope, which has a link to
> https://cscope.sourceforge.net/history.html
> written by Harold Bamford, in which he talks about the
> early days of cscope at Bell Labs and its inventor Joe Steffan.
>
> I wondered if anyone can add any interesting information about using
> cscope on their projects or anything about its development.
>
> -Marcus.
A long time ago on the project I was on when I was at AT&T / Lucent, the
department I was in had a wrapper shell script around cscope. We used
this wrapper to query the source of the product that we worked on. The
source, at the time, was huge and cscope was about the only thing around
that let you search the source with the least amount of pain. The
wrapper script simply invoked cscope in a safe way that kept it from
accidently re-indexing the source code when the developer didn't mean to
do that. We did re-indexes in a cron job every once in a while.
Since the source to cscope is available now, it has made it into pkgsrc
and I use it on the NetBSD source tree all of the time.
--
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org
From ralph at inputplus.co.uk Fri Apr 5 20:11:31 2024
From: ralph at inputplus.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:11:31 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <CAGfO01zTgj1QtKCBpjUSxeYphVwf221tEqnMeS_CL4wZSif=Aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<CAGfO01zTgj1QtKCBpjUSxeYphVwf221tEqnMeS_CL4wZSif=Aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20240405101119.270161FA4D@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
Hi Noel,
> And don't forget that 'samuel' had an interface to 'cscope'.
I've used cscope. What's samuel?
--
Cheers, Ralph.
From noel.hunt at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 06:46:59 2024
From: noel.hunt at gmail.com (Noel Hunt)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2024 20:46:59 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <20240405101119.270161FA4D@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<CAGfO01zTgj1QtKCBpjUSxeYphVwf221tEqnMeS_CL4wZSif=Aw@mail.gmail.com>
<20240405101119.270161FA4D@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAGfO01y7exVCSL5+n4tvWsnQOJBvSRbpZQEYT2X25kC1+FqhNA@mail.gmail.com>
'Samuel' is Rob Pike's 'sam' with some additions, those being the ability
to run 'cin' (C interpreter) on selected text, an 'advisor', which would
print the data type definition of selected text, and the 'browser', which
was an interface to cfront. Invoking 'browser' would fork a cscope
process running in line-oriented mode, and on button 3 were the
various search items that you will see in the normal cscope interface,
somewhat abbreviated. So you could select a piece of text, a name
of a function say, select 'calls to this function', and the results would
be added to the button 3 menu; selecting one of these takes you to
the file and line number in the cscope output.
There is one further addition, 'smudge'. It allows you to put a mark on
a place in a text file and assign an arbitrary name to it; these marks
then appear on a cascaded button 3 menu---select a mark, return to
that piece of text.
On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 9:11 PM Ralph Corderoy <ralph at inputplus.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi Noel,
>
> > And don't forget that 'samuel' had an interface to 'cscope'.
>
> I've used cscope. What's samuel?
>
> --
> Cheers, Ralph.
From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sat Apr 6 15:48:57 2024
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2024 05:48:57 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtD=N5W-cJ9FNcgdLRFs9Bc=RBr475T4awREOFO1KeEw2A@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 2:16 PM Marcus Clark <marcus.e.clark at outlook.com> wrote:
>
>
> Wikipedia has a brief page on cscope, which has a link to
> https://cscope.sourceforge.net/history.html
> written by Harold Bamford, in which he talks about the
> early days of cscope at Bell Labs and its inventor Joe Steffan.
>
> I wondered if anyone can add any interesting information about using
> cscope on their projects or anything about its development.
I used it a bit when coming up with FreeBSD kernel development 8 or so
years ago. These days I just tend to use 'ripgrep' which has been a
game changer for me when working across the repo sprawls of a
corporation.. having outrageous speed and not having to maintain an
index is really the winning ticket for my millennial brain.
> -Marcus.
From dave at horsfall.org Mon Apr 8 07:39:39 2024
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2024 21:39:39 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Does anyone have any memories of using cscope that they
care to share?
In-Reply-To: <Zg92CliXrPTmELRV@hydra.lemis.com>
References: <LO2P123MB74066CA4C75C4E6FF10DA007D53C2@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
<20240404223828.GD2235@mcvoy.com> <Zg85MaFFx69SJMdW@hydra.lemis.com>
<alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404051224550.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
<20240405020734.GF2235@mcvoy.com>
<Zg92CliXrPTmELRV@hydra.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404080738140.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
On Fri, 5 Apr 2024, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> > It knows everything and lets you see that fast. make cscope was a
> > thing in my makefiles for decades.
>
> Indeed. The main FreeBSD kernel Makefile also includes a cscope target,
> and also TAGS (for Emacs), which is similar.
OK, I'm convinced; it looks pretty neat.
Thanks, all.
-- Dave
From crossd at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 01:03:29 2024
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 15:03:29 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
the introduction of “word erase” functionality to the kernel terminal
driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it.
VMS does not support it.
What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem to
use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.
- Dan C.
From marc.donner at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 01:16:01 2024
From: marc.donner at gmail.com (Marc Donner)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 15:16:01 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALQ0xCBSMCpM7coBadhkkAtByk5TCt2h7W1JTicMjEKQoDL5BQ@mail.gmail.com>
In 1981 I was a grad student at CMU, which was running 4.1 or 4.2 at the
time. I had spent the previous three years at IBM Research where someone
had built some editing stuff into the command line machinery for CMS.
I implemented some input line editing stuff both for the Perq and as a
module for the one of the UNIX shells and shared them with some of the
systems folks at CMU. I do not know if they were adopted from my
implementations ... I am inclined to think not ... there was significant
skepticism of the value of command line editing among some of the systems
folks.
But the idea of retrieving previous command lines and editing the command
line was emerging as a thing in the early 1980s.
=====
nygeek.net
mindthegapdialogs.com/home <https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home>
On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 11:03 AM Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
> the introduction of “word erase” functionality to the kernel terminal
> driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
> with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
> nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
> kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
> sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it.
> VMS does not support it.
>
> What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem to
> use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
> for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
> TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.
>
> - Dan C.
>
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From arnold at skeeve.com Tue Apr 9 01:18:51 2024
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 15:18:51 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
> the introduction of “word erase” functionality to the kernel terminal
> driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
> with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
> nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
> kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
> sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it.
> VMS does not support it.
>
> What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem to
> use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
> for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
> TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.
>
> - Dan C.
My memory jibes with this -- through V7 defaults were # and @, and BSD
changed to ^H / DEL and ^U. ^W was a BSD thing, probably inspired by
TOPS-10.
There was a patch on USENET that added ^T to print the load average that
we put into the vax at Georgia Tech. A professor who'd come to us from MIT
saw it and was surprised tht we could do it on Unix. :-)
Arnold
From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Apr 9 01:30:08 2024
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 15:30:08 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqGuzzvxAuKJC+nqrmO3yMptskc0bXeQjL4m939MKTH=A@mail.gmail.com>
On Mon, Apr 8, 2024, 9:18 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
> Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
> > the introduction of “word erase” functionality to the kernel terminal
> > driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
> > with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
> > nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
> > kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
> > sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it.
> > VMS does not support it.
> >
> > What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem to
> > use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
> > for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
> > TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.
> >
> > - Dan C.
>
> My memory jibes with this -- through V7 defaults were # and @, and BSD
> changed to ^H / DEL and ^U. ^W was a BSD thing, probably inspired by
> TOPS-10.
>
> There was a patch on USENET that added ^T to print the load average that
> we put into the vax at Georgia Tech. A professor who'd come to us from MIT
> saw it and was surprised tht we could do it on Unix. :-)
>
^T made it into BSD and lives on to this day in the BSDs. If I were catty,
I'd say real unix still can... :) too bad linux never picked it up.
Warner
>
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From lm at mcvoy.com Tue Apr 9 01:40:07 2024
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 15:40:07 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <20240408153958.GL16155@mcvoy.com>
On Mon, Apr 08, 2024 at 09:18:41AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
> > the introduction of ???word erase??? functionality to the kernel terminal
> > driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
> > with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
> > nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
> > kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
> > sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it.
> > VMS does not support it.
> >
> > What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem to
> > use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
> > for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
> > TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.
> >
> > - Dan C.
>
> My memory jibes with this -- through V7 defaults were # and @, and BSD
> changed to ^H / DEL and ^U. ^W was a BSD thing, probably inspired by
> TOPS-10.
>
> There was a patch on USENET that added ^T to print the load average that
> we put into the vax at Georgia Tech. A professor who'd come to us from MIT
> saw it and was surprised tht we could do it on Unix. :-)
I loved and hated ^T. Logged into a 4MB Vax 780 running 4.x BSD
with 40-50 other students, the only thing that was responsive was ^T.
I really wonder how much slower that Vax was because we were all hitting
^T wondering when our compile would be done.
It was around then that I bought a 128K floppy only CP/M machine.
Slower than the Vax but it was all mine and unshared. I got way
more work done on that machine.
From lars at nocrew.org Tue Apr 9 01:59:37 2024
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 15:59:37 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqGuzzvxAuKJC+nqrmO3yMptskc0bXeQjL4m939MKTH=A@mail.gmail.com>
(Warner Losh's message of "Mon, 8 Apr 2024 09:29:49 -0600")
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
<CANCZdfqGuzzvxAuKJC+nqrmO3yMptskc0bXeQjL4m939MKTH=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7w5xwrdew0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
> Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> > TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not sure about
> > other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?).
I haven't seen it in TOPS-10. ITS doesn't have that on the "command
line", but then interaction with DDT isn't (and arguably shouldn't be)
very "wordy" anyway. Of course, TECO and EMACS has word erase. And ^W
is erase between cursor and mark so that's similar.
Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> writes:
> ^T made it into BSD and lives on to this day in the BSDs. If I were catty,
> I'd say real unix still can... :) too bad linux never picked it up.
There's a whole Wikipedia page about ^T:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_key
From rich.salz at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 02:07:04 2024
From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Rich Salz)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 16:07:04 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAFH29tpZhtr3Uz-3YJgbv=zpD9=Af67-kpiugh6Um0XwBHiOzw@mail.gmail.com>
On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 11:18 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
> There was a patch on USENET that added ^T to print the load average that
> we put into the vax at Georgia Tech. A professor who'd come to us from MIT
> saw it and was surprised tht we could do it on Unix. :-)
Chris Torek of UofMaryland.
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From clemc at ccc.com Tue Apr 9 02:14:41 2024
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 16:14:41 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2N8w+zZ6tA9JunPhHZVDxQfn=JkSt=Rv+LVfYyfxQ4peA@mail.gmail.com>
Control W, control-O et al was part of dos-8. It was all parts of the
early TOPS-10. Control-T came from Tenex which later became TOPS-20.
If VMS added it that was much later, as it was not in the early editions.
Steve Zimmerman added Control-T and all of Tenex tty features to an early
Masscomp RTU. I think Sam Added to a later version of BSD I believe.
My favorite story was that the Stanford folks modified the TOPS-20 “LOTS”
system to change what control-T returned depending on the load average. The
default would say RUNNING. LOTS reported JOGGING, WAlKING CRAWLING. But
the Adminstration made them remove the hack because it most often reported
DYING
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 11:03 AM Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
> the introduction of “word erase” functionality to the kernel terminal
> driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
> with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
> nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
> kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
> sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it.
> VMS does not support it.
>
> What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem to
> use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
> for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
> TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.
>
> - Dan C.
>
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From usotsuki at buric.co Tue Apr 9 03:09:09 2024
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 17:09:09 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2404081309100.6235@sd-119843.dedibox.fr>
On Mon, 8 Apr 2024, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> There was a patch on USENET that added ^T to print the load average that
> we put into the vax at Georgia Tech. A professor who'd come to us from MIT
> saw it and was surprised tht we could do it on Unix. :-)
I like this in the BSDs and miss it when I'm on Linux.
-uso.
From mah at mhorton.net Tue Apr 9 08:52:13 2024
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2024 22:52:13 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <63655700-31d7-4bd7-ae35-02f10463988e@mhorton.net>
On 4/8/24 08:18, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> Dan Cross<crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
>> the introduction of “word erase” functionality to the kernel terminal
>> driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
>> with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
>> nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
>> kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
>> sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it.
>> VMS does not support it.
>>
>> What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem to
>> use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
>> for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
>> TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.
>>
>> - Dan C.
> My memory jibes with this -- through V7 defaults were # and @, and BSD
> changed to ^H / DEL and ^U. ^W was a BSD thing, probably inspired by
> TOPS-10.
>
Vi had ^W for word erase long before the tty driver. It's documented in
2BSD.
I think it appeared in the tty driver as part of the new tty driver,
around 4.1C. The 4.2 stty(1) documents that you can set werase but only
with the new tty driver.
Personally I fondly recalled it from Tenex and wished for it in UNIX. I
can't recall if I lobbied for it or if anyone heard me.
Chambers and Quarterman noted the new tty driver's presence in 4.1C.
https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIX*_System_V_and_4.1C_BSD
> 2.2.5 Ioctls The ioctl system call is essentially
> identical in the two systems. The interesting differences
> are in the terminal driver ioctls. Both drivers utilize the
> ``line discipline'' notion, allowing dynamic choice among
> several protocols by the user process.
>
> Berkeley offers several new features in 4.1C BSD over
> the V7 terminal driver. Some of these are accessed as a new
> line discipline (the ``new tty'' discipline), while a few
> others are implemented as additional ioctl calls.
Thanks,
/Mary Ann Horton/ (she/her/ma'am)
В В В В В Award Winning Author
maryannhorton.com <https://maryannhorton.com>
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From torek at elf.torek.net Tue Apr 9 11:51:33 2024
From: torek at elf.torek.net (Chris Torek)
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:51:33 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <CAFH29tpZhtr3Uz-3YJgbv=zpD9=Af67-kpiugh6Um0XwBHiOzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <202404090151.4391pJMR034798@elf.torek.net>
>Chris Torek of UofMaryland.
I got it into 4.3-Reno. I did not come up with the whole thing but
Rehmi Post and I worked out how to compute %cpu without using floating
point (the original VAX-only version used FP but we had to stop doing
that when we were worried about porting to systems that lacked kernel
access to FP).
The version in current FreeBSD is fancier now though.
Chris
From tuhs at tuhs.org Thu Apr 11 00:26:41 2024
From: tuhs at tuhs.org (John Floren via TUHS)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 07:26:41 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
Message-ID: <877ch547fu.fsf@frodo.floren.lan>
I've been doing some research on Lisp machines and came across an
interesting tidbit: there was Chaosnet support in Unix v8, e.g.
https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V8/usr/sys/chunix/chaos.c
Does anyone remember why that went in? My first guess would be for
interoperability with the Symbolics users at Bell Labs (see Bromley's
"Lisp Lore", 1986), but that's just speculation.
john
From lars at nocrew.org Thu Apr 11 00:35:27 2024
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 14:35:27 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
In-Reply-To: <877ch547fu.fsf@frodo.floren.lan> (John Floren via TUHS's message
of "Wed, 10 Apr 2024 07:26:41 -0700")
References: <877ch547fu.fsf@frodo.floren.lan>
Message-ID: <7w1q7db80g.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
John Floren via TUHS <tuhs at tuhs.org> writes:
> I've been doing some research on Lisp machines and came across an
> interesting tidbit: there was Chaosnet support in Unix v8
See also previous discussions:
https://google.com/search?q="chaosnet"+site%3Atuhs.org
https://google.com/search?q="chaos"+site%3Atuhs.org
From douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu Thu Apr 11 01:11:39 2024
From: douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu (Douglas McIlroy)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:11:39 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
Message-ID: <CAKH6PiWW+f-18f8Tj3kOAvziN+Ke-mHAHmHdPAYD8wibWc54EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Where did chunix (which contains chaos.c) and several other branches of the
v8 /usr/sys tree on TUHS come from? This stuff does not appear in the v8
manual. I don't recall a Lisp machine anywhere near the Unix room, nor any
collaborations that involved a Lisp machine.
Doug
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From arnold at skeeve.com Thu Apr 11 02:46:59 2024
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:46:59 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
In-Reply-To: <877ch547fu.fsf@frodo.floren.lan>
References: <877ch547fu.fsf@frodo.floren.lan>
Message-ID: <202404101646.43AGkxuc018573@freefriends.org>
John Floren via TUHS <tuhs at tuhs.org> wrote:
> I've been doing some research on Lisp machines and came across an
> interesting tidbit: there was Chaosnet support in Unix v8, e.g.
> https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V8/usr/sys/chunix/chaos.c
>
> Does anyone remember why that went in? My first guess would be for
> interoperability with the Symbolics users at Bell Labs (see Bromley's
> "Lisp Lore", 1986), but that's just speculation.
>
> john
Didn't BSD have Chaosnet support? It wouldn't suprise me to learn that
it was just left over from when Research imported 4.1 BSD.
Arnold
From tuhs at tuhs.org Thu Apr 11 04:23:17 2024
From: tuhs at tuhs.org (segaloco via TUHS)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 18:23:17 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
In-Reply-To: <202404101646.43AGkxuc018573@freefriends.org>
References: <877ch547fu.fsf@frodo.floren.lan>
<202404101646.43AGkxuc018573@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <ao__2y_E3CCPWV_dmc_2_4lqciv362bHnsxfIFqAu2EoDfs8MZs3uLLfc6TV-ATmljBN5APkH2AxXaZ-G7X3dK4s15gseTM69XSTEt3gb5U=@protonmail.com>
On Wednesday, April 10th, 2024 at 9:46 AM, arnold at skeeve.com <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
> John Floren via TUHS tuhs at tuhs.org wrote:
>
> > I've been doing some research on Lisp machines and came across an
> > interesting tidbit: there was Chaosnet support in Unix v8, e.g.
> > https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V8/usr/sys/chunix/chaos.c
> >
> > Does anyone remember why that went in? My first guess would be for
> > interoperability with the Symbolics users at Bell Labs (see Bromley's
> > "Lisp Lore", 1986), but that's just speculation.
> >
> > john
>
>
> Didn't BSD have Chaosnet support? It wouldn't suprise me to learn that
> it was just left over from when Research imported 4.1 BSD.
>
> Arnold
Dan Cross's note on the providence of these files:
> The following files were found on Mountain Avenue. I understood
> that they all came from the final Bell Labs Plan 9 file server
So allegedly straight from Murray Hill.
If it helps trace this, many of the Chaos-related files contain copyrights regarding Nirvonics, Inc. and with authorship attributed to Kurt Gollhardt.
These copyright notices are in extant V8 and V10 sources on the archive (and some backed up headers in some of the V9 artifacts.)
I can't find a whole lot on Nirvonics otherwise, but looks like Kurt was also involved in another UNIX-based experiment regarding "Headturn" studying language capabilities in infants: https://open.library.ubc.ca/media/stream/pdf/831/1.0051436/1
- Matt G.
From robpike at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 07:12:18 2024
From: robpike at gmail.com (Rob Pike)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2024 07:12:18 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
In-Reply-To: <CAKH6PiWW+f-18f8Tj3kOAvziN+Ke-mHAHmHdPAYD8wibWc54EQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKH6PiWW+f-18f8Tj3kOAvziN+Ke-mHAHmHdPAYD8wibWc54EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKzdPgwOG4e6--hboCM2HbeoPfZqf5AeiJoV-FxVU-FgUR6WkA@mail.gmail.com>
I agree. The closest I can get is a Symbolics poster near Rae showcasing
the virtues of EMACS "with over 400 easy to use commands".
-rob
On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 1:12 AM Douglas McIlroy <
douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> Where did chunix (which contains chaos.c) and several other branches of
> the v8 /usr/sys tree on TUHS come from? This stuff does not appear in the
> v8 manual. I don't recall a Lisp machine anywhere near the Unix room, nor
> any collaborations that involved a Lisp machine.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
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From dave at horsfall.org Thu Apr 11 07:17:30 2024
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2024 07:17:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
In-Reply-To: <CAKzdPgwOG4e6--hboCM2HbeoPfZqf5AeiJoV-FxVU-FgUR6WkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKH6PiWW+f-18f8Tj3kOAvziN+Ke-mHAHmHdPAYD8wibWc54EQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CAKzdPgwOG4e6--hboCM2HbeoPfZqf5AeiJoV-FxVU-FgUR6WkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404110716220.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, Rob Pike wrote:
> I agree. The closest I can get is a Symbolics poster near Rae showcasing
> the virtues of EMACS "with over 400 easy to use commands".
I'd love to see that...
-- Dave
From joseph at josephholsten.com Fri Apr 12 11:29:03 2024
From: joseph at josephholsten.com (Joseph Holsten)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2024 18:29:03 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <63655700-31d7-4bd7-ae35-02f10463988e@mhorton.net>
References: <CAEoi9W5Jn7wPqjC-O3FFb7gZ=6ChXTJ_wY4MtCrKAJtRV+MkKQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202404081518.438FIflK003772@freefriends.org>
<63655700-31d7-4bd7-ae35-02f10463988e@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <9b6a85e4-ae0c-45a1-bd30-25e818c435c9@app.fastmail.com>
On Mon, Apr 8, 2024, at 15:51, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> On 4/8/24 08:18, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
>> Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the timing and rationale for
>>> the introduction of “word erase” functionality to the kernel terminal
>>> driver. My surface skim earlier leads me to believe it came to Unix
>>> with 4BSD, but it was not reincorporated into 8th Edition or later,
>>> nor did it make it to Plan 9 (which did incorporate ^U for the "line
>>> kill" command). TOPS-20 supports it via the familiar ^W, but I'm not
>>> sure about other PDP-10 OSes (Lars?). Multics does not support it.
>>> VMS does not support it.
>>>
>>> What was the proximal inspiration? The early terminal drivers seem to
>>> use the Multics command editing suite (`#` for erase/backspace, `@`
>>> for line kill), though at some point that changed, one presumes as
>>> TTYs fell out of favor and display terminals came to the fore.
>>>
>>> - Dan C.
>>>
>> My memory jibes with this -- through V7 defaults were # and @, and BSD
>> changed to ^H / DEL and ^U. ^W was a BSD thing, probably inspired by
>> TOPS-10.
>>
>>
> Vi had ^W for word erase long before the tty driver. It's documented in 2BSD.
>
> I think it appeared in the tty driver as part of the new tty driver, around 4.1C. The 4.2 stty(1) documents that you can set werase but only with the new tty driver.
>
> Personally I fondly recalled it from Tenex and wished for it in UNIX. I can't recall if I lobbied for it or if anyone heard me.
>
> Chambers and Quarterman noted the new tty driver's presence in 4.1C. https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIX*_System_V_and_4.1C_BSD
>
>
>
>> 2.2.5 Ioctls The ioctl system call is essentially
>> identical in the two systems. The interesting differences
>> are in the terminal driver ioctls. Both drivers utilize the
>> ``line discipline'' notion, allowing dynamic choice among
>> several protocols by the user process.
>>
>> Berkeley offers several new features in 4.1C BSD over
>> the V7 terminal driver. Some of these are accessed as a new
>> line discipline (the ``new tty'' discipline), while a few
>> others are implemented as additional ioctl calls.
That makes me wonder about the timeline compared to the other tenex-inspired BSD-ism I’m happy for: tcsh.
History here:
https://github.com/tcsh-org/tcsh/blob/master/tcsh.man.in#L10239 <https://github.com/tcsh-org/tcsh/blob/c416b8588e4012f6f90cd82262e7d30afe06bbbd/tcsh.man.in#L10239>
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From mah at mhorton.net Sat Apr 13 01:58:05 2024
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 08:58:05 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Word erase?
In-Reply-To: <202404090151.4391pJMR034798@elf.torek.net>
References: <202404090151.4391pJMR034798@elf.torek.net>
Message-ID: <1ac39bdc-df66-43f7-a5d3-1bd3d160c43b@mhorton.net>
On 4/8/24 18:51, Chris Torek wrote:
>> Chris Torek of UofMaryland.
> I got it into 4.3-Reno. I did not come up with the whole thing but
> Rehmi Post and I worked out how to compute %cpu without using floating
> point (the original VAX-only version used FP but we had to stop doing
> that when we were worried about porting to systems that lacked kernel
> access to FP).
>
> The version in current FreeBSD is fancier now though.
>
> Chris
Around 1981 I put a similar calculation into 2BSD for the PDP-11 with no
floating point, but this was for the system load average, not the %cpu.
It just imputes a decimal point in the middle of what the processor
considers an integer.
Thanks,
/Mary Ann Horton/ (she/her/ma'am)
В В В В В Award Winning Author
maryannhorton.com <https://maryannhorton.com>
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From fariborz.t at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 02:22:39 2024
From: fariborz.t at gmail.com (Skip Tavakkolian)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 09:22:39 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404110716220.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAKH6PiWW+f-18f8Tj3kOAvziN+Ke-mHAHmHdPAYD8wibWc54EQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CAKzdPgwOG4e6--hboCM2HbeoPfZqf5AeiJoV-FxVU-FgUR6WkA@mail.gmail.com>
<alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404110716220.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAA1C+h1EFwT0Ao3MKbzK+LthVnx1dEjJax4iLJuyTuqHa7RuzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Me too! The closest I can find (via Google) is this:
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fkx0vxqcztmd41.png
On Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 2:46 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, Rob Pike wrote:
>
> > I agree. The closest I can get is a Symbolics poster near Rae showcasing
> > the virtues of EMACS "with over 400 easy to use commands".
>
> I'd love to see that...
>
> -- Dave
>
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From spedraja at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 03:25:00 2024
From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 19:25:00 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
In-Reply-To: <CAA1C+h1EFwT0Ao3MKbzK+LthVnx1dEjJax4iLJuyTuqHa7RuzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKH6PiWW+f-18f8Tj3kOAvziN+Ke-mHAHmHdPAYD8wibWc54EQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CAKzdPgwOG4e6--hboCM2HbeoPfZqf5AeiJoV-FxVU-FgUR6WkA@mail.gmail.com>
<alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404110716220.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
<CAA1C+h1EFwT0Ao3MKbzK+LthVnx1dEjJax4iLJuyTuqHa7RuzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF-6tMR8yS1bn0pd24uHc-W+APwiGbjA4ghO4fHt6e1YEw@mail.gmail.com>
I think the text in this image is very close to the one you mentioned.
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F337bdabf-59f1-4ec9-8848-2f2bf3222dd0_756x1000.jpeg
Sergio Pedraja
El lun, 15 abr 2024, 18:23, Skip Tavakkolian <fariborz.t at gmail.com>
escribiГі:
> Me too! The closest I can find (via Google) is this:
>
>
> https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fkx0vxqcztmd41.png
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 2:46 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, Rob Pike wrote:
>>
>> > I agree. The closest I can get is a Symbolics poster near Rae
>> showcasing
>> > the virtues of EMACS "with over 400 easy to use commands".
>>
>> I'd love to see that...
>>
>> -- Dave
>>
>
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From marcus.e.clark at outlook.com Wed Apr 17 05:07:04 2024
From: marcus.e.clark at outlook.com (Marcus Clark)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2024 19:07:04 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Chaosnet in v8
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF-6tMR8yS1bn0pd24uHc-W+APwiGbjA4ghO4fHt6e1YEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKH6PiWW+f-18f8Tj3kOAvziN+Ke-mHAHmHdPAYD8wibWc54EQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CAKzdPgwOG4e6--hboCM2HbeoPfZqf5AeiJoV-FxVU-FgUR6WkA@mail.gmail.com>
<alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2404110716220.31370@aneurin.horsfall.org>
<CAA1C+h1EFwT0Ao3MKbzK+LthVnx1dEjJax4iLJuyTuqHa7RuzQ@mail.gmail.com>
<CACytpF-6tMR8yS1bn0pd24uHc-W+APwiGbjA4ghO4fHt6e1YEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <LO2P123MB740602D4E3A9296DA94029EBD5082@LO2P123MB7406.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Is that a copy of the C Puzzle Book on the table behind Alan Feuer?
________________________________
From: Sergio Pedraja <spedraja at gmail.com>
Sent: 15 April 2024 18:25
To: Skip Tavakkolian <fariborz.t at gmail.com>
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Chaosnet in v8
I think the text in this image is very close to the one you mentioned.
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F337bdabf-59f1-4ec9-8848-2f2bf3222dd0_756x1000.jpeg
Sergio Pedraja
El lun, 15 abr 2024, 18:23, Skip Tavakkolian <fariborz.t at gmail.com<mailto:fariborz.t at gmail.com>> escribiГі:
Me too! The closest I can find (via Google) is this:
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fkx0vxqcztmd41.png
On Wed, Apr 10, 2024, 2:46 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org<mailto:dave at horsfall.org>> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, Rob Pike wrote:
> I agree. The closest I can get is a Symbolics poster near Rae showcasing
> the virtues of EMACS "with over 400 easy to use commands".
I'd love to see that...
-- Dave
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From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Sat Apr 27 15:19:46 2024
From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 15:19:46 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] [ off topic ] History of US computing leading to 1968 NATO
Conference on Software Engineering
Message-ID: <3FEB2B5C-B791-4FD3-AA69-A839251FD282@canb.auug.org.au>
Sorry for the dual list post, I don’t who monitors COFF, the proper place for this.
There may a good timeline of the early decades of Computer Science and it’s evolution at Universities in some countries, but I’m missing it.
Doug McIlroy lived through all this, I hope he can fill in important gaps in my little timeline.
It seems from the 1967 letter, defining the field was part of the zeitgeist leading up to the NATO conference.
1949 ACM founded
1958 First вЂfreshman’ computer course in USA, Perlis @ CMU
1960 IBM 1400 - affordable & вЂreliable’ transistorised computers arrived
1965 MIT / Bell / General Electric begin Multics project.
CMU establishes Computer Sciences Dept.
1967 “What is Computer Science” letter by Newell, Perlis, Simon
1968 “Software Crisis” and 1st NATO Conference
1969 Bell Labs withdraws from Multics
1970 GE's sells computer business, including Multics, to Honeywell
1970 PDP-11/20 released
1974 Unix issue of CACM
=========
The arrival of transistorised computers - cheaper, more reliable, smaller & faster - was a trigger for the accelerated uptake of computers.
The IBM 1400-series was offered for sale in 1960, becoming the first (large?) computer to sell 10,000 units - a marker of both effective marketing & sales and attractive pricing.
The 360-series, IBM’s “bet the company” machine, was in full development when the 1400 was released.
=========
Attached is a text file, a reformatted version of a 1967 letter to ’Science’ by Allen Newell, Alan J. Perlis, and Herbert A. Simon:
"What is computer science?”
<https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~choset/whatiscs.html>
=========
A 1978 masters thesis on Early Australian Computers (back to 1950’s, mainly 1960’s) cites a 17 June 1960 CSIRO report estimating
1,000 computers in the US and 100 in the UK. With no estimate mentioned for Western Europe.
The thesis has a long discussion of what to count as a (digital) вЂcomputer’ -
sources used different definitions, resulting in very different numbers,
making it difficult to reconcile early estimates, especially across continents & countries.
Reverse estimating to 1960 from the “10,000” NATO estimate of 1968, with a 1- or 2-year doubling time,
gives a range of 200-1,000, including the “100” in the UK.
Licklider and later directors of ARPA’s IPTO threw millions into Computing research in the 1960’s, funding research and University groups directly.
[ UCB had many projects/groups funded, including the CSRG creating BSD & TCP/IP stack & tools ]
Obviously there was more to the “Both sides of the Atlantic” argument of E.W. Dijkstra and Alan Kay - funding and numbers of installations was very different.
The USA had a substantially larger installed base of computers, even per person,
and with more university graduates trained in programming, a higher take-up in private sector, not just the public sector and defence, was possible.
=========
<https://www.acm.org/about-acm/acm-history>
In September 1949, a constitution was instituted by membership approval.
————
<https://web.archive.org/web/20160317070519/https://www.cs.cmu.edu/link/institutional-memories>
In 1958, Perlis began teaching the first freshman-level computer programming course in the United States at Carnegie Tech.
In 1965, Carnegie Tech established its Computer Science Department with a $5 million grant from the R.K. Mellon Foundation. Perlis was the first department head.
=========
From the 1968 NATO report [pg 9 of pdf ]
<http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/brian.randell/NATO/nato1968.PDF>
Helms:
In Europe alone there are about 10,000 installed computers — this number is increasing at a rate of anywhere from 25 per cent to 50 per cent per year.
The quality of software provided for these computers will soon affect more than a quarter of a million analysts and programmers.
d’Agapeyeff:
In 1958 a European general purpose computer manufacturer often had less than 50 software programmers,
now they probably number 1,000-2,000 people; what will be needed in 1978?
_Yet this growth rate was viewed with more alarm than pride._ (comment)
=========
--
Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design
0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA
mailto:sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin
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From douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 27 22:18:20 2024
From: douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu (Douglas McIlroy)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 08:18:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] [ off topic ] History of US computing leading to 1968
NATO Conference on Software Engineering
In-Reply-To: <3FEB2B5C-B791-4FD3-AA69-A839251FD282@canb.auug.org.au>
References: <3FEB2B5C-B791-4FD3-AA69-A839251FD282@canb.auug.org.au>
Message-ID: <CAKH6PiVBb6X1kfG3yxsd2DuUke41CQ1cFp2ULh++2yLDBVb_=g@mail.gmail.com>
Steve,
Your list coincides well with my recollection. A couple of sidelights:
MIT had one computer course when I arrived there in 1954. It was more about
arithmetic than programming. Desk calculators were used in numerical
analysis classes.
Philco's release of a transistorized competitor to IBM's 700 series caused
IBM to bring the 7090 out of the back room and drop the newly introduced
709. This was surely not a planned business decision. IBM was able to do
that quickly thanks to its work on the 7030 (Stretch) supercomputer for
national-defense labs.
Purdue's computer-science department was founded in 1962. That trickle
became a torrent by 1964-5, but as late as 1977 Fred Brooks still opined
that any calling with science in its name was not a science, witness
Christian Science, mortuary science and cosmetic science.
-------------------------------------------
Parochial event: Bell Labs split computer science from mathematics in 1967.
Rise of the quicksort fallacy. Tony Hoare's publication in 1961 made
algorithms a hip topic. Generations of students since have been led to
believe that quicksort is fit for general use, although it is almost always
programmed with deterministic pivot selection, while Tony specified random
selection. Deterministic selection requires one to believe that data sets
are random, not the algorithm. Maybe Fred Brooks was right.
On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 1:20 AM steve jenkin <sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au>
wrote:
> Sorry for the dual list post, I don’t who monitors COFF, the proper place
> for this.
>
> There may a good timeline of the early decades of Computer Science and
> it’s evolution at Universities in some countries, but I’m missing it.
>
> Doug McIlroy lived through all this, I hope he can fill in important gaps
> in my little timeline.
>
> It seems from the 1967 letter, defining the field was part of the
> zeitgeist leading up to the NATO conference.
>
> 1949 ACM founded
> 1958 First вЂfreshman’ computer course in USA, Perlis @ CMU
>
> 1960 IBM 1400 - affordable & вЂreliable’ transistorised
> computers arrived
> 1965 MIT / Bell / General Electric begin Multics project.
> CMU establishes Computer Sciences Dept.
> 1967 “What is Computer Science” letter by Newell, Perlis, Simon
> 1968 “Software Crisis” and 1st NATO Conference
> 1969 Bell Labs withdraws from Multics
> 1970 GE's sells computer business, including Multics, to
> Honeywell
> 1970 PDP-11/20 released
> 1974 Unix issue of CACM
>
> =========
>
> The arrival of transistorised computers - cheaper, more reliable, smaller
> & faster - was a trigger for the accelerated uptake of computers.
>
> The IBM 1400-series was offered for sale in 1960, becoming the first
> (large?) computer to sell 10,000 units - a marker of both effective
> marketing & sales and attractive pricing.
>
> The 360-series, IBM’s “bet the company” machine, was in full development
> when the 1400 was released.
>
> =========
>
> Attached is a text file, a reformatted version of a 1967 letter to
> ’Science’ by Allen Newell, Alan J. Perlis, and Herbert A. Simon:
>
> "What is computer science?”
> <https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~choset/whatiscs.html>
>
>
> =========
>
> A 1978 masters thesis on Early Australian Computers (back to 1950’s,
> mainly 1960’s) cites a 17 June 1960 CSIRO report estimating
> 1,000 computers in the US and 100 in the UK. With no estimate mentioned
> for Western Europe.
>
> The thesis has a long discussion of what to count as a (digital)
> вЂcomputer’ -
> sources used different definitions, resulting in very different
> numbers,
> making it difficult to reconcile early estimates, especially
> across continents & countries.
>
> Reverse estimating to 1960 from the “10,000” NATO estimate of 1968, with a
> 1- or 2-year doubling time,
> gives a range of 200-1,000, including the “100” in the UK.
>
> Licklider and later directors of ARPA’s IPTO threw millions into Computing
> research in the 1960’s, funding research and University groups directly.
> [ UCB had many projects/groups funded, including the CSRG creating BSD &
> TCP/IP stack & tools ]
>
> Obviously there was more to the “Both sides of the Atlantic” argument of
> E.W. Dijkstra and Alan Kay - funding and numbers of installations was very
> different.
>
> The USA had a substantially larger installed base of computers, even per
> person,
> and with more university graduates trained in programming, a higher
> take-up in private sector, not just the public sector and defence, was
> possible.
>
> =========
>
> <https://www.acm.org/about-acm/acm-history>
>
> In September 1949, a constitution was instituted by membership
> approval.
>
> ————
>
> <
> https://web.archive.org/web/20160317070519/https://www.cs.cmu.edu/link/institutional-memories
> >
>
> In 1958, Perlis began teaching the first freshman-level computer
> programming course in the United States at Carnegie Tech.
>
> In 1965, Carnegie Tech established its Computer Science Department
> with a $5 million grant from the R.K. Mellon Foundation. Perlis was the
> first department head.
>
> =========
>
> From the 1968 NATO report [pg 9 of pdf ]
> <http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/brian.randell/NATO/nato1968.PDF>
>
> Helms:
> In Europe alone there are about 10,000 installed computers — this
> number is increasing at a rate of anywhere from 25 per cent to 50 per cent
> per year.
> The quality of software provided for these computers will soon
> affect more than a quarter of a million analysts and programmers.
>
> d’Agapeyeff:
> In 1958 a European general purpose computer manufacturer often had
> less than 50 software programmers,
> now they probably number 1,000-2,000 people; what will be needed
> in 1978?
>
> _Yet this growth rate was viewed with more alarm than pride._
> (comment)
>
>
> =========
>
> --
> Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design
> 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
> PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA
>
> mailto:sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin
>
>
>
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